Pre-trib Chart Debunked

Let me point out some major problems with this bogus chart that independent fundamental Baptists have been using to prop up their false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine:

1. This chart shows the first 3.5 years of the "tribulation" as a time of "temporary peace." According to them, that is when the 7 seals will be opened. This is typical teaching of pre-tribulation rapture teachers, but does it line up with scripture?

Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Does that sound peaceful? What about this:

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Is that a time of "temporary peace"? NO

2. Nowhere does the Bible mention "bowl" judgments. The King James Bible talks about seven "vials" of judgment, not "bowls." Whoever made this chart was not reading a King James Bible, so why do KJV-only Baptists use it?

Debunking Missionary Mike Mislan's "Problems with a Post-trib Rapture"

Missionary Mike Mislan has said that there are a lot of "problems with the post-trib rapture position." I asked him what they were, and he sent me this list. Here are my responses to each of his "problems."

Missionary Mike Mislan: Here's [sic] a few problems with a post-trib rapture.

1. The trump to announce the rapture is not the same as the trump of Revelation. One is the trump OF GOD (1 Thes 4:16) while the other is the seventh trump OF ANGELS (Rev 8:6) God is not angels nor angels God.

I agree that the rapture doesn’t take place at the 7th trumpet

2. By placing a post trib rapture at this seventh trump, the unknowability and eminent return of Christ is removed (Mk 13:32)

I don’t place a post-trib rapture at the 7th trumpet. Also, the verse that you are quoting to say that Christ’s coming is “imminent” (Mark 13:32) is taken from a passage that pre-tribbers claim is not about the rapture because he just finished saying it was after the tribulation (Mark 13:24). Which one is it?

3. Pre-Tribulationalists have never interpreted the "falling away" of 2nd Thes 2:3, as being the rapture. Instead they have traditionally understood it to mean apostasy as the Greek says (Strongs G646) - a precursor to the rapture. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.." (1 Tim 4:1)

How is this a problem with a post-trib rapture?

4. In Rev 20:4-6, this phrase "part in the first resurrection" reveals this first resurrection was in "parts" or "phases" (1 Cor 15:22- 24, Mat 27:52-53) which implies that a previous resurrection of first fruits had preceded it, such as the rapture (1 Thes 5:1-11)

Here you erroneously call the rapture “the firstfruits” and then put 1 Cor 15:22-24 in parenthesis to support your point. Those verses prove that the rapture is NOT the firstfruits! Those verses also prove that the resurrection of believers is only in 2 phases: at Christ’s coming and after the millennium.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

5. The fact that Christ returns WITH His saints to set up His Kingdom (Rev 19:11-14), shows the "rapture" was a previous "part" of this first resurrection.

I agree that he returns with the saints in Revelation 19 to set up his kingdom. The first resurrection (rapture) already took place over 3 years before that. Not a problem for post-trib. God’s wrath being poured out is AFTER the tribulation and AFTER the rapture.

6. Passages where the "Day of Christ" occur do not state a post-trib rapture (Cor 1:8, 1 Cor 5:5, 2 Cor 1:14, Phil 1:6, Phil 1:10, Phil 2:16)

How is this a problem with a post-trib rapture? Do they state a pre-trib rapture? Does ANY verse state a pre-trib rapture? Also, you conveniently removed one mention of the "Day of Christ" (2 Thess 2:1-4) which DOES state a post-trib rapture!

7. In order to prove a post trib rapture, post-tribbers must take all "Day of Christ" passages and improperly link them to Mat 24:29-31 which does not contain this phrase and was in reference to the Jew not the church.

You can’t prove that Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, and Luke 21 are all “in reference only to the Jews.” Didn’t you quote Mark 13 early to prove the rapture of the “church” was imminent? Do you only apply Mark 13 when it is convenient for your doctrine, and at other times you say that it's only for the Jews?

8. The "Day of Christ" which Post-Tribbers assert is the rapture, may also refer to the Judgment Seat of Christ and the awarding of crowns: "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which.. the righteous judge, SHALL GIVE ME AT THAT DAY... (2 Tim 4:8) " Who shall.. confirm you unto the end, that ye may be BLAMELESS IN THE DAY of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 1:8), Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain… (Phil 2:16) " that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. (Phil 1:10).

Still not a problem for post-trib.

9. While 2 Thes 2:1-4 implies a mid-trib rapture, additional factors must be considered. These are: (a) such phrases as "be not soon shaken" "troubled" and "deceived" along with the context of many believing that "day of Christ is at hand" shows many had falsely believed that Christ had already come and Paul was simply stating that since these things have not yet taken place, they could have not missed His coming, (b) This phrase [that day shall not come] cannot be used as a conclusive proof for it was a clarification by the KJV translators, (c) the positive closing of this chapter indicates the tribulation would be avoided "hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts." (2 Thes 2:16-17), (d) NT Scripture teaches in a Pre-Trib rapture.

You said: “(b) This phrase [that day shall not come] cannot be used as a conclusive proof for it was a clarification by the KJV translators,”

So now the KJV is wrong?! I guess you know more than the translators!”

You also said: “(d) NT Scripture teaches in a Pre-Trib rapture.”

Nice circular reasoning!

10. The order of events as they unfold in chapters 19 and 20 in Rev confirm the traditional view of a pre-tribulation rapture with all subsequent events properly falling into place…

Can you be a little more specific? haha

11. The different features between Christ coming to meet His saints in the air (Lk 17:22-30, Mat 24"36-39, Lk 21:34-36, Eph 5:1-8, Joel 2:31, 1 Thes 5:1-11, Isa 2:12-21, Rev 6:12-17) as compared to His coming at the Judgment of Nations (Rev 19:11-14, 20) reveals two separate and distinct events which cannot take place at the same time…

I don’t believe that his coming in the air is the same as his coming to judge the nations. Strawman.

12. Rom 1:18 and Jn 3:17 make it clear that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who.. believeth not the Son" (Rom 1:18, Jn 3:16). Being "justified" we have been saved through this wrath through Him (Eph 5:15)

The tribulation is not God’s wrath.

13. Christ promised His church in Philadelphia that He would keep them from the hour of temptation, and the church is absent during the tribulation (Rev 3:10, chaps 4-22).

Actually, the church at Philadelphia no longer exists so it is already “absent.”

14. Christ loved His church, gave Himself for it (Eph 5:15) and a post-trib rapture is inconsistent with the love that Christ has for His Church (2 Tim 1:72, 1 Thes.5:9, Pet 2:9, Tit 2:13, 1 Tim 6:14, Ja 5:8, Phil 4:5, Jn 1:1-3, 1 Thes 4:17-18)… (11) The purpose of the tribulation is to judge ungodliness, to fulfill God's promises to the Jew, and to prepare Israel for Christ's return (Jer 30:7, Dan 9:20-27), NOT to punish Christ's future bride (Eph 5:27)…

So basically you’re saying that if God loves us we won’t endure tribulation?

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2Co 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

15. Like the word "trinity" or "Deity," while this English word "rapture" is not specifically found in the Bible, it's doctrinal truths are still there.

How is that a problem for post-trib? We believe in the rapture.

16. The early church, our Christian forefathers, most mainline Christian churches in the U.S., as well as protestant churches in Europe all believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. The post-tribulation-rapture theory is taught by the Catholic Church, and other Eastern Orthodox church cults, and is held by only five percent of evangelical and/or Baptist churches.

There is no evidence of a single human being believing the pre-trib rapture before 1830. In addition, most of the pre-trib believers you just mentioned are also on their way to Hell. Let’s stick with the Bible.

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Well, there you have it folks. Those are all the numerous "problems" with the post-tribulation rapture position.

The "Falling Away" of 2 Thessalonians 2

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” – Thessalonians 2:1-4

2 Thessalonians 2 is a passage in the Bible that warns us not to be deceived about the second coming of Christ. I have often used this passage to show people the truth about when the rapture will take place, but lately I have been shocked at the response that some people have given me. Apparently, those who believe that the rapture takes place before the tribulation actually believe that the “falling away” mentioned in verse 3 is referring to the rapture!

First of all, things don’t fall up! How can anyone actually believe that the “falling away” is referring to believers being “caught up together” in the clouds?! Not only that, but the Bible uses the term “falling away” in other places, and the meaning is clear:

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” – Luke 8:13

Is this a passage on the rapture? No, it is clearly referring to people falling away spiritually, which is a bad thing. This may seem basic, but when something falls it goes down, not up.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” – Hebrews 6:4-6

Again, this passage is definitely not referring to the rapture. This is talking about people falling away spiritually.

In an article entitled “Left Behind at the Rapture,” David Stewart of the website “Jesus is Savior dot com” writes:

“The word ‘rapture’ is not found in the Bible, but the phrase ‘falling away’ certainly is. Though some theologians have concluded that the ‘falling away’ is only referring to ANARCHY, this erroneous teaching does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible. ‘Falling away’ in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 in the Greek simply means ‘a departure.’” – David Stewart

Here is an excerpt from his article “The Pre-tribulation Rapture:”

“I also believe that the word ‘Rapture’ does NO injustice to the Scriptures. The word ‘Rapture’ means ‘to be caught away.’ In the following Scriptures (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), we read the term ‘a falling away.’ “The Greek meaning for this phrase is ‘a departure.’ I believe this that this term refers to the departure of the Saints.” – David Stewart

Since things don’t fall up, David Stewart has decided to “go back to the Greek” to tell us what the Bible REALLY says. Since I believe that the King James Bible is the preserved word of God, I don’t think it is necessary at all to “go back to the Greek” since the term “falling away” is used repeatedly in our English Bible, and it is very clear what it means.

Mr. Stewart here deceitfully uses the Greek as a justification for changing what the Bible says. He claims that the Greek word simply means “a departure.” What he fails to mention is that the Greek word here is “αποστασια” or in Latin letters “apostasia.” If he had mentioned that, it may have been a little too obvious that the Bible is referring here to apostasy, i.e. falling away from the faith, not the rapture! The “departure” being referred to is a departure from the faith which is exactly what “apostasy” is!

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;” – 1 Timothy 4:1

The Greek word “apostasia” is used in only one other verse in the Bible:

“And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.” – Acts 21:21

"Forsake" is the English translation of the Greek word "apostasia." Again, this is a forsaking of doctrine, which is the definition of “apostasy.” This deception illustrates why you should always take everything you hear with a grain of salt when preachers are “going back to the Greek.” Usually they are just trying to change what the Bible says, as is the case here with a “falling away” being twisted into being “caught up” to the clouds.

Now that we have seen how the Bible itself defines “falling away” (departing from the faith), look at the passage again:

“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” – Thessalonians 2:1-4

The passage clearly states that the Day of Christ is not at hand, and that we should not allow people to deceive us that it is at hand. It goes on to say that the Day of Christ shall not come until AFTER there is a falling away, and AFTER the man of sin (antichrist) is revealed by sitting in the temple of God and claiming to be God. This event is referred to in the Bible as the Abomination of Desolation (see Daniel 11, 12 and Matthew 24).

Anyone who tells you that the Day of Christ is at hand is deceiving you according to the Bible. What is the Day of Christ? The "Day of Christ" is referred to 7 times in the Bible:

1 Cor 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Cor 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The rapture cannot occur until the day of Christ since that is when the good work of sanctification he began in us will be complete, and we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Phil 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phil 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The Bible is very clear that the rapture takes place AFTER the tribulation:

Matt 24:29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.